Curse

Robin_Anadri · May 23, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

A reading from the Book of ArenaNet:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Now -- *holds up hand* -- I know the temptation will be to say, "Well, give us an auction house and we won't need to do this." That would be nice, we all agree, but unfortunately, with the many other things we are working on, that's not going to happen in the immediate future. And in the present, and in the future, we'd really like people to be able to both enjoy a conversation and conduct sales.

This is the word of the Gaile. Thanks be unto the Gaile.

The "immediate future" is GW:EN, and since that's the last gasp of Guild Wars before they turn all their energy towards Guild Wars II, this is the final nail in the coffin of our hopes for an auction house in Guild Wars (unless they're secretly plotting Guild Wars: Auction House as an expansion for Q2 '08, but that seems a little far-fetched to me.)

So why isn't the auction house one of the things they're working on? No cynical "because they don't listen to their users" crap, people. They've proven that they do listen - more storage, hard mode, the return of 8v8 HA, the list goes on. No other game company shows the kind of concern and respect for their user community that ArenaNet does. They've known how strongly the community wanted an auction house since the end of the last Guild War, I think, when the sky rained fire and destroyed Ascalon. They've known since the Searing - that's over two years! Hell, I was in the betas and I remember the talk about needing a better trade system back then.

The reason it was stopped has to be either policy or technology.

Was it policy? Did someone in charge put their foot down and say "No, we will not spend development effort on an auction house?" Maybe they felt that having an auction house would make it too easy for the gold farmers, so they didn't implement an auction house because of what they felt it would do the economy. Maybe they felt it would make "rare" things too common, if selling to other players was too easy, the market would be flooded and massive deflation would occur.

Was it technology? Is there something inherent to the client/server design of Guild Wars that makes creating an auction house an insurmountable task? Would keeping track of objects that players wanted to sell create a data storage problem that would overwhelm their disk space? Would it simply require too much retrofitting of the code (ie, they could do it, but they'd have to throw away the current design and build it in with the auction house function planned for from the beginning, and it's just too big an effort for not enough perceived gain?)

I'm curious to what you other folks think. Is there a reason I'm missing, or is one or a combination of the above what stopped the auction house?

mazey vorstagg · May 23, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I think is must be technology, wow and CoH amonst others have proved game balance remains stable with an AH.

the fact there is only one visible server must be the problem. A space issue indeed.

Quantum Duck · May 23, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

My personal theory:

The distributed dynamic worldwide server architecture made it virtually impossible to add an auction house. Not that it couldn't still be done, but it would require immense development resources *far* beyond those required to add an AH to a sharded game. The traders are only possible because they only have to throw a single number across the network for each material/rune in a small fixed list. Thousands of players posting tens of thousands of uniquely randomly generated gold items would require so much data to be globally distributed that it would simply destroy the current infrastructure.

I'd guess that this is part of why they are going with a sharded (but thankfully still open to at will transfers) model for GW2. They should be able to add something vaguely AH like that only needs to distribute data to the rest of the shard where something is posted.

Again, this is all just a personal theory. But it makes sense to me when I keep hearing that it would be very difficult to make an AH in this game, and people argue back that other lower budget (and always sharded I note) games have AHs. Combine this difficulty with the fact that the GW item system really isn't the same as a that of a typical MMO (a player can conveniently aquire max stat items without ever trading with another player), and I can see why it would be put lower on the priority list than other important projects.

Red-Tide · May 23, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

hmmm 3 million copies sold X $40 USD (approx) = $120000000

Must be financial constraints...

sarcasm aside - If it is an issue with the code and it just not being compataible, I wish they would just say as much. The vague comments made by Gaile leave us more frustrated than anything.

2 years we have been told it was coming and then one day, we get a "it's no longer in the plans" type comment from Anef Community relations. BS IMO, if it isnt gonna happen a simple explanation would go a long way to appeasing alot of people. Instead they let specaultion run rampant along with rumoring mongering galore. GG Anerf!

shirosae · May 23, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Guild Wars probably runs on a set of virtual OS running game servers on a building-full of machines in various locations. They've spent a huge amount of time and effort setting this system up - it's the reason they can roll out updates without kicking us all off, and have servers from different builds running at the same time.

Adding a separate auction server (it'd need to be, given that it needs to be global) on a similar level would probably be another huge lot of time and effort. Like, writing a completely new netcode level of time and effort.

Why they don't increase the space available in Party Search, i have no idea.

Bryant Again · May 23, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Maybe they felt it would make "rare" things too common, if selling to other players was too easy, the market would be flooded and massive deflation would occur.

That's exactly what's happening right now with the release of Hard Mode, so it's safe to rule that out.

But Robin, that is a very good question that I've asked on these boards repeatedly: Okay, we won't get an auction house, cool. It won't be possible to implement with the current Guild Wars build, no problem. But why wasn't it made in the beginning?

The only logical thing that I can come to is time restraints - it may've been something on their to-do list, but they ran out of time.

I thing if it is something hard to program, they won't admit it. I feel as though it would make them look like bad programmers.

x-stunt-x · May 23, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

i just want my old GW back

MSecorsky · May 23, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

If they publicly admit flaws in the technology that prevent the viability of an auction house then all they do is fan the flames of the anti-GW crowd, giving them ammunition to try and divert people away from GW and onto lesser games. Mystery is better at making sales than inability.

With all that they've done, it's obviously a technological reason. Imagine everyone putting some semi-crappy gold on the auction house hoping to get 500g instead of 225 from the merchant! There would be so much shmeg it would be near impossible to find items you really want. Talk about a crap shoot. If they try to limit it by allowing only one item in auction at a time... well, it's still hundreds of thousands (potentially) of items out there to sift through. Huge database, huge search routines, ugh. Conjured nightmare.

Consider this... when a database is being added to or deleted from it tends to lock the database so no one else can step on the transaction. Ponder the results of many thousands of people trying to access the same database at any point in time across such a distributed game... ow. Not good.

For the sake of GW, let the auction house die.

korcan · May 23, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

does it really matter? speculation is good and dandy but what good will it do? even if the community were given a reason, its not changing the fact that were never ever ever getting an auction house.

i just wish that anet would have been more upfront about it. telling us that it was on the way then cancelling plans for one all together once info about gw2 was released wasnt very professional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile_Grey

And in the present, and in the future, we'd really like people to be able to both enjoy a conversation and conduct sales.

obviously, the devs have never tried selling items in-game and having to sell items through a 3rd party fansite is rather inconvenient.

Aera Lure · May 23, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Its probably auction server support and development needed to track all the data and take constant ping inquiries into it. Its free to play online, with no monthly fees, so even though Red-Tide's figure looks large (its a little more than half that as they sell the game to distributors at around half retail and have production costs), something like WoW dwarfs whatever end figure you come up with due to having monthly fees.

A secondary thing is probably EotN is the end of GW full-on development. Too late to invest so much into it as would be needed for an auction house if they first chose to go ahead with it despite above. They probably looked at both these factors and developer needs for EotN and GW2 and simply canned expanding GW with an AH as too high a cost given other things in play.

Operative 14 · May 23, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

So sayeth Gaile, All hail Gaile. Ahmen

I'd have to agree with everyone here. There is no doubt in my mind that it has been one of their major considerations for an update for a very long time, just that the neccesary development would require a very hefty change to the game as a whole. Though I would say not much more a change than would already be required for another Chapter.... Perhaps GW:EN will bring an Auction House or a comparable system(I doubt it

)?

dargon · May 23, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

The main problem is having a viable solution that would work. Having an NPC simply wouldn't work as players would have to scroll through 10k+ items simply to find the one they want. Having player run market stalls wouldn't work as it really wouldn't be any different than now. What they have now isn't ideal, but it does work, this is why an auction house/etc was given a low priority.

And as for EotN being a last hurrah, don't count on it. GW1 still has a full team working on it, there could quite possibly be more expansions for it. This is as per various comments from the assorted devs, etc that have actually made comments, both in the magazine article and online.

Aera Lure · May 23, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

obviously, the devs have never tried selling items in-game and having to sell items through a 3rd party fansite is rather inconvenient.

Selling items in game actually went more or less fine (sure, could have been better) until the economy took a turn south, be it hard mode, inscriptions etc and everyone having quick access to decent things, or farming nerfs hurting income earning potential. Point at whatever you want, its much harder to sell now than it was, hence the spike in spamming and the resurgance of calls for an auction house.

Oh well. At least we know its not coming and I'd point to Auctions here. I used to use it with great success, except for the fact that for me its way slow to load each and every page, so I am more content lately to just wholesale or merch low and mid-level things in game. Cant remember the last thing I found where I said "gee, someone would pay a good deal for this." The occasional elite tome or green and whatnot being sort of a staple thing for me now. Maybe the odd perfect inscription. About it.

Loviatar · May 23, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red-Tide

2 years we have been told it was coming and then one day, we get a "it's no longer in the plans" type comment from Anef Community relations. BS IMO, if it isnt gonna happen a simple explanation would go a long way to appeasing alot of people. Instead they let specaultion run rampant along with rumoring mongering galore. GG Anerf!

get it right for once.

they have never promised an auction house......never........period

they said trade improvements of an unspecified type at an unspecified time.

@ Robin_Anadri

somebody posted earlier that the proposed auction house was too close to the WOW setup which is evidently copyrighted and Anet/NCsoft was told legal action would be taken if it went ahead.

rather than redo it they are looking for something else.

since top Anet people came from WOW and were programers there it could be true.

unless someone official says yes/no it sounds like possible but still rumor to me.

my own personal opinion is that Anet is not doing it for 2 reasoms.

1. people using it for storage

2/ bots having Anet sell their stuff and the botmasters simply have more botting time and make cash pickups as needed from sales.

Lonesamurai · May 23, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

The main problem is having a viable solution that would work. Having an NPC simply wouldn't work as players would have to scroll through 10k+ items simply to find the one they want. Having player run market stalls wouldn't work as it really wouldn't be any different than now. What they have now isn't ideal, but it does work, this is why an auction house/etc was given a low priority.

And as for EotN being a last hurrah, don't count on it. GW1 still has a full team working on it, there could quite possibly be more expansions for it. This is as per various comments from the assorted devs, etc that have actually made comments, both in the magazine article and online.

Indeed, and theres nothing stopping ANet doing an auction system that encompasses both games, maybe through the official site... The game already feeds information to the website in a few ways, maybe an auction system could work in a similar way for both GW and GW2, as GW2 is apparently using the same, although heavily modified/updated engine

BladeDVD · May 23, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I think another thing is priority. AH or no AH is not game breaking (obviously since GW just hit 2 years and is still going strong). So when you combine the amount of time and work to implement an AH (as speculated above), vs. the other things on their to do list...the Auction House keeps losing.

shirosae · May 23, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Scrolling through 10k+ items is a non issue, because it wouldn't happen.

Every item in the game only has so many mods, with so many combinations.

Filter: [Gold]+[Mursaat Hornbow]+[15-28]+[req9]+[15^50]+[Vamp 3/1]+[HP+30] etc.

Or you could have a tree system, where you choose folders to look in:
[Weapon/Offhand/Whatever] > Weapon - [Bow/Hammer/Etc]

For the end-user, the complexity really is nothing too hard to program for.

The database holding all of that, updating and accessing it in realtime with thousands of players is what would scare me. I suppose you could instance individual servers for each, so that the 'Bow' section of the AH was actually a separate server and database.

MSecorsky · May 23, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirosae

Scrolling through 10k+ items is a non issue, because it wouldn't happen.

Every item in the game only has so many mods, with so many combinations.

But how many weapons have the exact same stats? Even the Mursatt bow you mentioned could have thousands of identical copies out there, each with a slightly different asking price. How about if you're looking at one that someone else buys while you're looking? You go to purchase it, record not found.

It's too massive to support without it grinding very quickly to a halt.

shirosae · May 23, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

But how many weapons have the exact same stats? Even the Mursatt bow you mentioned could have thousands of identical copies out there, each with a slightly different asking price. How about if you're looking at one that someone else buys while you're looking? You go to purchase it, record not found.

It's too massive to support without it grinding very quickly to a halt.

You could do it like SWG used to, and bring up a list of identical items with asking prices.

Or you could do it like FFXI, where each possible item is represented only once, and when you bid over a reserve value you get the lowest priced item. After x days the item is taken off sale and sent back to the player who put it up (their deposit for the sale is not refunded, this way the AH turns into a money-sink itself and discourages AH spamming).

TheRaven · May 23, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I tend to agree with Loviatar. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Anet risked copyright violation if they created an Auction House. This sounds reasonable. I've never played WOW and don't know anything about the game other than what I've read on this forum, but from that I've learned 2 things.

1. WoW does have an Auction House
2. Some A-Net devs used to work for the company that produced WoW.

Obviously those devs cannot simply quit working for WoW and start up a new company (Anet) and take the WoW program code with them. They've be slapped with so many lawsuits, ArenaNet would be bankrupt in a month.

So, they have the issue of trying to program a viable Auction House, yet they also can't just "it was done this way at WoW....let's plug this piece in here...Voila!" They have to unlearn the way WoW did it and come up with something unique for GW.

Please don't be too harsh on Gaile. As a programmer myself I seriously doubt that Gaile knows the exact reasons why an Auction House isn't being developed. She is not a "techie" programmer herself so she's just going by the information the devs give her. If they say "we can't do it". She doesn't understand all the technical reasons why they can't do it. Just that they can't for some reason.